Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked."Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat."I don't know," Alice answered."Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
"So long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation. "Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
"All right," said the Cat; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of the tail, and ending with the grin, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone. "Well! I've often seen a cat without a grin," thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!"
- Name: beepbeepitsme
- Location: Australia
I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Like Arthur Dent from "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy", if you do not have a Babel Fish in your ear this blog will be completely unintelligible to you and will read something like this: "boggle, google, snoggle, slurp, slurp, dingleberry to the power of 10". Fortunately, those who have had the Babel Fish inserted in their ear, will understood this blog perfectly. If you are familiar with this technology, you will know that the Babel Fish lives on brainwave radiation. It excretes energy in the form of exactly the correct brainwaves needed by its host to understand what was just said; or in this case, what was read. The Babel Fish, thanks to scientific research, reverses the problem defined by its namesake in the Tower of Babel, where a deity was supposedly inspired to confuse the human race by making them unable to understand each other.
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"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." ~ John Donne 1624
Nearly Half of Americans Believe in Creationism
Almost half of Americans believe that human beings did not evolve, but were created by God in their present form within the last 10,000 years or so, results from a new Gallup Poll revealed.
Analysts also found a strong correlation between the level of education and the response. About three-quarters of those with a post-graduate degree said humans developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, compared to just 22 percent choosing the “created in present form” option.
Oh dear....(whimpers in disbelief)Please tell me I am dreaming.
Link
28 Comments:
Creationism is more plausible than any other theory.
Creationism is plausible if you believe in "Extracular" the all-powerful, invisible sandwich creator of the "Tikki-tikkipoopoo Tribe."
68% of australians claim a religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia
Perhaps 5% of these religious people are fundamentalist christians. (With numbers growing all the time because of our closer historical affiliation with the US)
Not many religions aparts from christian or islamic fundamentalism require that "creationism" is a tenet of belief.
Most australian christians are NOT fundamentalist christians, hence they have little or no problem combining the science of evolution with their religious belief.
Certainly, the catholic church has for decades said that evolution is not in conflict with catholicism.
You are not dreaming.
An interresting question is: Is homo sapiens the only creature that was created by God in its present form. What about fish, birds, dinosaurs or pigs?
I find it highly amusing that some people need a magical sky daddy to help them understand (or not) the natural universe. Not everybody here in the US is benighted and ignorant; even some Christians I know are scientists and they don't care for the extreme right's carjacking of reason any more than those of us who don't have mystical sky daddies at our beck and call.
So you really think that we evolved from single cell organisms?
Is there any scientific basis for this argument? To my knowledge, there is not.
Am I denying evolution as a whole? Definitely not. Evolution is fact of life among all species. The trouble is linking the magical appearance of single cell organisms to the diversity and scientifically implausible perfection of the Earth. From our perfect distance to the Sun, to the exact atmospheric makeup to sustain life.....the odds of this occuring by chance are 1 in a trillion at best.
Yes, I do think that living things evolve from the simple to the complex. But even if I didn't think that, it wouldn't make the idea of a volcano god anymore plausible or logical.
Fundamentalist christians and muslims want to make this a war between science and religion. That is what makes them fundamentally crazy and a danger to humanity.
Maybe they just don't like the theory of Evolution being rammed down their throats? Ever consider that possibility?
Not sure how you missed that, Jeff (/snark off:) Even single-celled organisms are naturally constructed from millions of separate but complementary molecules which are composed of atoms which are composed of sub-atomic particles.
Life evolved from non-life. It's called abiogenesis and involves compounds created via natural processes occuring naturally and inevitably, thanks to the laws of physics, in the wide wonderful expanse of the cosmos.
Not anything can happen. But if it can, it most likely will, given enough time.
Re: jeff>> "Maybe they just don't like the theory of Evolution being rammed down their throats? Ever consider that possibility?"
This means you are a fundamentalist christian, which I consider to be as loopy and insane as fundamentalist muslims.
Fundamentalist muslims AND fundamentalist christians want to force us back to the dark ages where "knowledge" was in the control of the religion or the church.
And where the church being the law of the land, could imprison or torture any scientist who opposed their 2,000 year old superstitious scribblings.
Rambukk: That IS a very interesting question, as the evolution of various animals is well documented and quite accepted science.
The evolution of the horse is one example which is well documented and not opposed by anyone except perhaps fundies.
"Fundies" of all kinds are growing like the borg, demanding that the rational world stop thinking and follow a 2,000 year old book literally.
Fundamentalists want us to follow the bible literally until we find a phrase or a verse which makes them uneasy, and then it is "pick and choose time."
Example: This is to be taken literally: Mark 6:45-52 "49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out"
But this verse is NOT to be taken literally Luke 14:26 ""If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother...he cannot be my disciple."
The same can be said of fundamentalist muslims. They follow the quran literally until you point out a verse that they find hard to accept literally, like
Q. 18:86 "Until when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water."
Fundamentalist believers of all types are lunatics and should be avoided wherever possible.
"Even single-celled organisms are naturally constructed from millions of separate but complementary molecules which are composed of atoms which are composed of sub-atomic particles."
Supposing you are right (which is only an educated guess based on the fact that nobody has ever seen an atom even with the most powerful microscopes currently available), you still fail to account for the other miraculous factors that make life possible here on planet Earth. Distance from the Sun, atmospheric makeup, ozone layer, fresh water, etc. As I said earlier: Creationism is a much more plausible explanation for life on Earth than are Evolution and the Big Bang Theory, alone.
"This means you are a fundamentalist christian, which I consider to be as loopy and insane as fundamentalist muslims."
I'm a fundamentalist because I think people should be able to believe in Creationism rather than Evolutionary teaching?! I could say the same of you for not believing Creationism. Perhaps we would call you a Fundamentalist Atheist. Hmmm?
RE: Jeff "based on the fact that nobody has ever seen an atom even with the most powerful microscopes currently available"
BS: "In 1981, a type of microscope called a scanning tunneling microscope (STM) was developed. The STM and new variations of this microscope allow us to see atoms. In addition, the STM can be used to manipulate atoms."
http://science.howstuffworks.com/atom9.htm
You are at least 25 years out of date with your knowledge about atoms and about 2,000 years out of date based on your religious beliefs.
RE: Jeff "I'm a fundamentalist because I think people should be able to believe in Creationism."
You can believe that invisible, rabid monkeys live in your anus if you so choose, just keep it out of a rational, scientific debate.
I do not attempt to take your "linus comfort blanket" away from you, no matter how illogical and inaccurate it is.
Just don't try and pretend that your religious beliefs about the world are on an equal basis with scientific concepts.
The scientific process continues to provide models which explain the natural world far more successfully than your antiquated sky fairy belief and it is this fact which annoys fundamentalist religious believers the most.
Oh and one more thing. We are not here because the conditions were made so perfect for us by an invisible sky fairy."
We are here because WE SUIT the conditions :)
In other words, we (and all life), were naturally selected and evolved over millions of years to suit and complement the environment and the conditions in which life found itself.
As for being a fundamentalist atheist? I fundamentally do NOT BELIEVE that gods exist.
Either yours or the greeks, romans, jews, sumerians, egyptians, babylonians or any other culture you can name who created a god or multiple gods for themselves.
But, allowing fundamentalist religious people too much power, is like letting the academic failures of the planet to dictate the world's curriculum.
So you've admitted to being a Fundamentalist Atheist. Atheism is an interesting belief. Effectively you are stating that there is NO God or Divine Source. This requires an enormous amount of energy and committment to fully realize. For instance, when you find yourself at the end of your existence, lying on your deathbed, you must not hope for a better life after this one as an Agnostic might do, because you must remain convinced that this was all there was. The severe pain that you may be going through must be dealt with by sheer willpower and science alone. No hope but that Man can make this life easier. Ironically, one would think that with the rapid progression of scientific breathroughs and medical achievements, Man's need for God would lessen more and more....and perhaps this is the case. Are we, infact, becoming a nation of Automatons/Atheists? Is this a good thing or are is the declining moral fabric of our society suggesting that Automatonism/Atheism is not the best progression forward?
I also must reiterate my previous statement whereby I claimed that I do believe in evolution....I just don't see why it can't exist hand in hand with Creationism.
Oh, and as I'm not Catholic, the Catholic church's statements on any of this hold no sway with me.
RE: Jeff >> " Effectively you are stating that there is NO God or Divine Source." INCORRECT!
Try to understand english, I am sorry if it is your second language.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT GODS EXIST.
YOU BELIEVE THAT GODS EXIST.
I do not state that they definitely do not exist, as you might call your cat "god" and then for all intents and purposes god DOES exist under those circumstances.
As as a theist you have a position of BELIEF in a god or gods.
As an atheist, I have a position of DISBELIEF in a god or gods.
I just don't BELIEVE in them, you do.
Being a theist is NOT stating that god exists. You need to understand your terms.
Theist>> "One who BELIEVES in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theist
A theist (by definition) is NOT stating that god or gods exist. They are stating that they BELIEVE that they do.
If theists claim that gods definitely exist, then religions are longer belief systems.
Religion: "BELIEF in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
Please note that both theism and religions deal with BELIEF. They are not claims for the definite existence of something.
In closing, it is as difficult for me to NOT BELIEVE in the existence of gods as it is for most people to NOT BELIEVE in the existence of fairies. It takes very little of my time to not believe in any supernatural claims as it is not as if fairies, gnomes, gods, centaurs, werewolves, sprites are knocking at my door and saying, "Why don't you BELIEVE in us?"
"I DON'T BELIEVE THAT GODS EXIST.
YOU BELIEVE THAT GODS EXIST."
Wrong. I believe that God exists.
"If theists claim that gods definitely exist, then religions are longer belief systems."
I believe the sky is blue. I also 'claim' that the sky is definitely blue because I've seen it. My cousin is blind and has not seen the sky. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it make a sound?
Theists BELIEVE in god or GODS. That is the point. Monotheists BELIEVE in ONE god.
The emphasis is on the word BELIEVE.
A small error in my previous post. It should say: "If theists claim that gods definitely exist, then religions are NO longer belief systems."
THEISTS BELIEVE and RELIGIONS ARE BELIEF SYSTEMS.
The major point is that theists BELIEVE in the existence of god or gods. Atheists do NOT BELIEVE in the existence of god or gods. THIS BELIEF IS REGARDLESS OR CONTRARY TO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. Which is why it is called a BELIEF.
I KNOW that there are people who BELIEVE in the existence of god/gods, but I am one who DOES NOT BELIEVE in their existence.
You don't NEED TO BELIEVE that the sky is blue or that it is grey or any other colour. Sky colour can be observed.
And because it is part of the NATURAL WORLD which science is able to observe and study, there is NO NEED FOR BELIEF in sky colour.
One can KNOW sky colour. One can OBSERVE sky colour.
Belief is irrelevant unless you have a physical eyesight deformity, and then a blind person might say, "well, I BELIEVE that the sky is blue."
So, unless you are blind, or you have an eyesight deformity, there is no need to say that you BELIEVE the sky is blue.
It is a stupidty to state a belief in the obvious. (No, the existence of god or gods is NOT obvious. If the existence of god or gods was obvious, it would not be a BELIEF.)
If a tree falls in the forest it makes a sound. If it is a tree from earth and it falls in a forest on the planet earth, it makes a sound.
We KNOW this even if we are not present at the event.
We KNOW that it makes a sound because of:
1. our knowledge of trees,
2. our knowledge about their habits,
3. our knowledge about mathematics,
4. our knowledge about sound,
5. our knowledge about physics,
6. our knowledge about forests,
7. and our knowledge about gravity etc.
(Note: We don't KNOW these things because of our BELIEF in them.)
The tree does NOT require our permission to make a sound just because we are NOT there.
And let's not forget the obvious where we could set up sound equipment and camera equipment to record the event.
Jeff, if you close your eyes the natural world does not disappear just because you are no longer viewing it.
The world does not need your viewing permission to continue to exist without your presence.
Please understand, the world does not exist because you personally will, or allow it to do so and gods do not by default exist because you BELIEVE they do either.
The problem that I think unbelievers have with religion, is that they haven't 'seen' nor felt the Holy Spirit. Put it this way:
Using the example of the blind man, let's say he walks outside one beautiful summer day and feels the warmth on his skin and smells the pine trees that are nearby. Nobody is around to explain the visible world to him. Does he believe it is a nice day and that pine trees are nearby or does he know it is a nice day and pine trees are nearby?
You see, we are all very much like the blind man in my example. We go through this life on this mortal coil and we do our best to make sense of the physical world. But are our four senses enough to decipher the 'different layers' that surround us? Could there be a 'fifth dimension' that our physical body is incapable of sensing? Our we, infact, blind to the spiritual world that surrounds us?
To answer this question, we must first learn how to use our 'spiritual sense'. Nonbelievers have a rusty and weak 'spiritual sense' and as with most arts, intense practise and great effort is required to strengthen one's 'spiritual awareness'.
Do I believe there is a God? Yes, but because I have meditated and approached the subject with an open mind, I can say that I 'know' there is a God. I don't need science to confirm God's existence because science will never be able to. But I have developed the 'fifth sense' and have 'felt' the Holy Spirit as clearly as the blind man feels the warmth of the sun.
RE: Jeff, The major problem with this argument is that the vast majority of people who describe themselves as atheists or agnostics or disbelievers are not atheists because they have not had christianity/islam/hinduism etc explained to them in a religious context.
Your assumption is that they are just unfortunate individuals who have not had the opportunity to have had YOUR SPECIFIC BELIEF/RELIGION explained to them.
The vast majority of people I know who consider themselves to be atheists DO come from positions of former religious belief.
They are well read about many belief systems and they most likely have been people who have gone through the rituals and practices of a specific church for large %s of their lives.
There came a point when they no longer believed. In fact, a point when they could no longer pretend to believe in order to keep the status quo.
Disbelief was a slow process for me but eventually I realised that I COULD NOT BELIEVE that the bible was the inerrant word of god.
If the bible was not the inerrant word of god, what was? The quran? The vestas? Some other religious book?
It was then I realised that they are books written by men who CLAIM that the words are the inerrant word of a supernatural being.
Even the notion/idea of a supernatural being is proposterous.
Everything that we can possibly know of exists in the natural world. Even the things we cannot see, touch, feel or hear exist in the natural world.
To claim that somehow there is another category for "special religious things" which we just have to BELIEVE IN, is an absurdity.
This special category of "religious things" which priests/pastors/preachers/ministers/shamen etc call the SUPERNATURAL WORLD is just a way of certain people claiming "special knowledge."
Why would certain people claim "special knowledge"? Because it allows them to claim economic/political/cultural power.
My motto, when in doubt as to the machinations or origins of something is >>> FOLLOW THE MONEY.
By the way, using what you claim to have, your "spiritual sense" is claiming that people (but especially religious people, have a special sense which allows them to know about god.
That is hogwash. This "spiritual sense" is an emotional/psychological desire for an eternal parent. Someone who is looking after you for eternity. It is based on an emotional need, not a "spiritual sense."
Your "special, spiritual sense or knowledge" is your emotional needs at full throttle.
Your "special, spiritual sense or knowledge"are your emotional needs at full throttle.
The more demanding your emotional needs, the more likely you are to want a supernatural parent. We all have emotional needs, atheists just don't confuse those needs with god belief.
Yes I do feel sorry for those that have obviously become involved with a 'money grubbing' church and have become jaded by Christianity. Of course this happens and it seems to be happening more and more as society becomes more detached and isolated from itself. You are very good at finding examples of dubious pastors and shady preachers. I admire your ability to research these 'snakeoil' salesmen. The problem is that you're painting the entire Christian faith with a dirty brush. Your bad experiences with Christianity have lead you to determine it a fraud.
Let me ask you something and see what you think: Why is it that every known civilization has had a belief in a higher power? From isolated rainforest tribes to great monolithic societies like the Romans, mankind has always 'felt' the presence of the Divine. Did they all just have emotional needs that weren't being met by the rest of the members of their society?
Interesting thoughts. There's a great article that really simplifies all this at http://practically-thinking.blogspot.com/2006/05/of-science-and-creation.html. This should be a "must read"!
Stories about supernatural men in the sky are frauds. Not just christianity.
It is the initial spernatural claim that each religion claims as fact that I consider fraudulent.
Show me some religions that do NOT gain economic power or political power through these fraudulent supernatural claims.
These types of claims have always created a strong power base. The monarchies of the world for example were based on the claim of the divine right of kings. They claimed that not only did God want them to be king/queen, but that their descendents were given the divine right to rule BY GOD even before those descendents were born.
Religions and god belief have a very shady past. It is a past I am happy to distance myself from.
Claiming god belief and god's graces as a leader of a community was just another way to increase and retain power. It was, and still is, a way to manipulate and coerce large % of the population so that they will do your political and economic will.
It is a scam, but a highly profitable and powerful one.
Anonymous: Thank you for that wonderful link. David H basically reiterates what I've been saying, but in a much better manner. Indeed, Creationism and Science can exist hand in hand.
BB writes:"Claiming god belief and god's graces as a leader of a community was just another way to increase and retain power. It was, and still is, a way to manipulate and coerce large % of the population so that they will do your political and economic will."
Interesting point, however you haven't answered my question. Why did every known civilization choose a spiritual path in order to manipulate their population? What made them even 'think' of the spiritual dimension to begin with? Why not just manipulate them through worldly measures such as pain, deprevation, or ego based punishments?
Re anonymous: Thanks for the link :)
RE jeff: Every society has sought to provide answers to things they could not understand. If the reason for an occurence was not obvious, it must have been something unseen. So the unseen became the reason for why things were happening.
Societies built whole belief systems around the unseen.
There was a type of rock when placed in the fire became hotter than the other rocks and it caught on fire. They had no scientific process to work out why this was, so perhaps that rock had special invisible properties inside it that allowed it to catch on fire.
Perhaps it was a sign from invisible things inide the rock that they wanted the tribe to always have fire and prosper.
So the tribe started being "nice" to those special types of rocks that burnt when other rocks didn't. They started placing those rocks in a certain pattern when they made the fire.
They decorated the base of the firepit with the rocks in the shape of flames because the special powers inside the rock might burn more brightly if it was pleased with their effort.
Then someone noticed that a red and yellow parrot flew past when the fire with the special rocks was burning brightly.
One of the people (with a good imagination), said, "The smoke from the special burning rock has wafted into the sky and created the fire colours of the parrot. This is a sign that the parrot now has the strength of the burning rock. The special energy that was in the burning rock is now in the parrot and we will never again hunt that parrot for food because if we do, the special rocks will be unhappy with us, and cease to burn brightly for us and we will cease to prosper."
After a couple of generations, the power of the burning rocks is well known to the tribe. They do not question the power. The power has been known to burn them, but only when they have been bad and done something against the wishes of the "special rocks".
The tribe has collected many "burning rocks" and placed them in a special house where they can be protected, counted and have special oils sprinkled over them to keep them happy and content.
The tribe has prospered. It now has many rituals concerning the special burning rocks with magnificent powers. They ask the powerful rocks special questions about the world. They lower themselves to the special rocks as they lower themselves to the head of the tribe, because they know that the special rocks could use their power against the tribe if they got pissed off.
The leader of the tribe also bends his body to the powerful rocks because he wants to remain the leader. He speaks to the rocks under his breath and asks them to be his ally and support him in the upcoming war against the people who follow the "power of the water."
And so on and so forth.
Superstitious minds create answers. For a comprehensive understanding of how people create gods through superstition, it is a good idea to study the evolution of religions.
Start at animism and move on from there.
I have also written an article which might explain the process further.
Whether Pigs Have Wings And Fly In That Inverted Bowl They Call The Sky
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2005/11/whether-pigs-have-wings-and-fly-in.html
If all else fails, go and read.
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