Proving That Nobody Can Get Into Heaven
God in Heaven from The Nuremberg ChroniclesVideo Transcript: ~
By watching this short video, you will be able to prove to yourself that nobody can get into heaven. To prove it, all that we have to do is to read what jesus says in the bible. In the bible, the lord jesus gives us clear instructions on how to inherit eternal life. He gives us eight steps that we must follow to get to heaven. Let's look at these steps one by one.
In the gospel of Luke chapter 10 jesus gives us Step 1.
Luke 10: 25 - 28 ~ On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself." "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Step 1 sounds simple enough. Love god. Love your neighbour. You will have eternal life. You will get to go to heaven. Now let's look at Step 2. In the gospel of Luke chapter 18 we find the second step.
Luke 18:18 - 22 ~ A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother." "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
SELL EVERYTHING???? That's what jesus says and jesus is god and god is perfect, so jesus should know what he is talking about. You need to sell everything: your house, your car, your bed, your boat, you get the idea. EVERYTHING and then you get to go to heaven. NO, there has NOT been a translation error and jesus isn't goofing around, you really do need to sell everything. It's the word of god. Now if you are a normal, intelligent person and if you live in any western nation, you've just realised something. You are going to be spending a lot of time on ebay because you have got a lot of stuff to sell.
And if you look carefully, you may have realised something else. There's one other thing you need to do, you need to follow jesus. You need to become jesus's disciple and that gets us to Step 3.
In the gospel of Luke chapter 14, jesus says: Luke: 14: 26-27 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. 33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
Now this is starting to get complicated and if you are a normal, intelligent person, you are starting to see the problem here. How can you honor your father and mother and hate your father and mother? How can you love everybody and hate everybody? And here's this pesky thing about selling everything again. Yes, EVERYTHING! And jesus is supposed to be god, and god is supposed to be perfect, so jesus must know what he is talking about.
Now let's go to Step 4 and it will get even stranger. In the gospel of John chapter 6, jesus says:
John 6: 53- 57 ~ Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me."
In the gospel of Luke chapter 14, jesus says: Luke: 14: 26-27 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. 33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
Now this is starting to get complicated and if you are a normal, intelligent person, you are starting to see the problem here. How can you honor your father and mother and hate your father and mother? How can you love everybody and hate everybody? And here's this pesky thing about selling everything again. Yes, EVERYTHING! And jesus is supposed to be god, and god is supposed to be perfect, so jesus must know what he is talking about.
Now let's go to Step 4 and it will get even stranger. In the gospel of John chapter 6, jesus says:
John 6: 53- 57 ~ Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me."
That's right, you have to eat flesh and drink blood if you want to go to heaven. Ths sounds absolutely grotesque, doesn't it. And even if jesus is speaking metaphorically, it sounds like some bizarre satanic cult. If you are a normal, intelligent person, do you want to be involved in a satanic cult? I don't think so, but let's add it to the list and move straight to Step 5.
In the gospel of Matthew chapter 18 jesus says:
Matthew 18: 3-4 ~ And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Of course these would be blood-sucking flesh eating little children, but then in Step 6 jesus strangely changes his mind. You don't actually have to be a little child, you have to be born again. Here's what jesus says:
John 3: 3-8 ~ In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Firstly let's notice that jesus is completely wrong here. We do know where the wind comes from and where it is going. The other thing to notice is that what jesus says here makes absolutely no sense. And then in Step 7 he changes his mind again.
Matthew 5:20 ~ For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Do you know what this means? There are 613 laws in the old testament and the parisees were following these laws religiously. A hundred of these laws have to do with animal sacrifice and there are all kinds of other crazy laws in there. No normal, intelligent person is going to be as righteous as a Pharisee. It's nuts, but let's add it to the list and move finally to Step 8.
Step 8 is the famous John 3:16. ~ "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
If you are a normal, intelligent adult, then 3 things should now be obvious to you. The first thing is that John 3:16 is only one slice of an eight slice pizza. However, you have probably heard John 3:16 thousands of times and you never hear about the other seven slices. The other seven steps have just as much weight in the bible, but you never hear about them. Why is that? It's because when you look at the other seven steps, they make absolutely no sense.
Let's see, you have to love everyone and hate everyone. You have to be a little child and also be a pharisee adult following the 613 ridiculous laws. You have to eat flesh and drink blood and then there is the part about selling everything. Jesus actually mentions that part twice because it is so important. But let's be honest, you are not going to sell everything. NO ONE IS. This entire list is ridiculous.
That leads us to the second thing. It should be obvious to you that jesus had no idea what he was talking about. He was making all of this stuff up. If jesus were perfect, then everytime he talked about eternal life, he would have given the same answer. Any intelligent person can understand that. Instead, jesus's answers were all over the map. They all contradict each other and they are impossible to follow.
That leads us to the third thing. It is time for us to state the truth. HEAVEN IS A FAIRYTALE. It is a fairytale just like Jack's beanstalk and santa's sleigh. Heaven is completely imaginary.
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." - Albert Einstein
posted by beepbeepitsme | 11:53 am
13 Comments:
Beepbeep, why didn’t you add v 23-30 of Luke 18? Jesus said that to test the man and show him where his priorities were.
In the Luke 14: 26-27, it not talking about malice, but saying that devotion must take second place to one’s devotion to Christ. In v 33 (and really the whole passage), it is referring to how the believer must be willing to sacrifice all for Christ.
You should have added verses 58-63 of John 6, esp. v 63 which says ‘The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to are Spirit and they are life.’ There you have it right there. These first three errors could easily have been avoided if you had simply taken the passages in context.
In Matthew 18 you apparently missed the references to humility. In v 3 it says that ‘unless you became like’. So it is not talking about literally turning into little children, but of having the same openness as children.
John 3 makes perfect sense to me (and I would say to most other Christians). Back in the 1st century A.D., before that, and for a long time after that, people had NO idea of where the wind was going or of where it was coming from. And now, even though we have a pretty good idea of both, we do not know both 100% for sure. Going back to an earlier discussion, if there are no absolutes, you can’t be sure of anything, not even of the fact that you’re reading this.
Christ’s atonement on the cross did away with the ceremonial law (the law with all the sacrifices and offerings). Also, the Pharisees observation of the law was only external and was done to impress people and draw praise to themselves, so it would have been easier to surpass their righteousness than you seem to think.
As I said, many of you errors could be avoided by taking the verses in context.
Daniel
RE anonymous daniel:
RE: "Beepbeep, why didn’t you add v 23-30 of Luke 18? Jesus said that to test the man and show him where his priorities were."
In Luke18: 23-30 Jesus talks about how difficult it will be for the rich to enter heaven. Luke 18:25 "Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." This complies with jesus saying that you must sell everything to get to heaven.
IN Luke18: 29-30 Jesus reiterates that you must forsake all, even your family in order to get to heaven. "I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life." This complies with what he says in Luke: 14: 26-27.
I agree that in Luke 14: 26-27, from a figurative point of view that jesus is saying that he must come first, before family etc. Are you a literalist? Or do you interpret the bible? And how do you ascertain which parts are literal and which are figurative? My experiences with believers is that they choose subjectively which parts are literally true and which parts are figurative.
RE: "You should have added verses 58-63 of John 6, esp. v 63 which says ‘The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to are Spirit and they are life.’ There you have it right there. These first three errors could easily have been avoided if you had simply taken the passages in context."
Firstly, in John 6: 58-63, jesus is not talking specifically about what someone has to do to get into heaven, so it isn't relevant to the argument. It is out of context. Secondly, there are no 3 errors. The passages described are ones where jesus talks specifically about what it is you have to do to get into heaven.
RE: "In Matthew 18 you apparently missed the references to humility. In v 3 it says that ‘unless you became like’. So it is not talking about literally turning into little children, but of having the same openness as children."
Matthew 18: 2-3 "He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I agree that it says like little children, I didn't say at anytime that jesus inferred that we had to literally be children. But I am not sure that humility and "little children" go together. And the word "openness" isn't the word I would use to describe children, the word that springs to mind is gullibility. Why are little children gullible? Because their ability to reason is not highly developed and they lack knowledge. This lack of knowledge is contrasted in Matthew 5:20 where jesus tells them that their righteousness must surpass that of the pharisees. The pharisees were the yardstick for what was considered righteous. In order to be considered righteous, you needed to obey the laws, 613 of them. So Jesus might as well have said, "Don't reason, don't think, trust me, I am a politician."
RE: "John 3 makes perfect sense to me (and I would say to most other Christians). Back in the 1st century A.D., before that, and for a long time after that, people had NO idea of where the wind was going or of where it was coming from. And now, even though we have a pretty good idea of both, we do not know both 100% for sure."
But jesus is god, he is supposed to know where the wind is blowing and where it is going to. If he is supposedly perfect and doesn't know this, how can I accept that any of the other things he says are true? The excuse is fine if you are talking about someone who is just an ordinary person from that time period, but we are not, we are talking about someone who people consider to be either, the son of god, or god, or both. Someone of such acclaim should know where the wind is going and where it comes from.
RE: " Going back to an earlier discussion, if there are no absolutes, you can’t be sure of anything, not even of the fact that you’re reading this."
An absolute is something free from inspection, free from imperfection, complete, perfect. If I believed that the bible was perfect, an absolute, I wouldn't be inspecting it, and neither would you.
RE: "Christ’s atonement on the cross did away with the ceremonial law (the law with all the sacrifices and offerings). Also, the Pharisees observation of the law was only external and was done to impress people and draw praise to themselves, so it would have been easier to surpass their righteousness than you seem to think."
There is the assumption that jesus by attempting to create new law, was NOT trying to impress people and draw praise to himself? I can make the same claims about jesus. He was trying to corrupt the law. He was trying to impress people and he was trying to draw praise on himself. Obviously, he considered he was above the law, that the law did not apply to himself or to others. His claim, if he existed, was that the law of the pharisees was corrupted, so the law did not apply to him. That makes him a political dissident, but not a god or the son of a god.
RE: "As I said, many of you errors could be avoided by taking the verses in context."
Of course you consider them out of context because they do not comply with your preconceived belief. You pick and choose which passages are literal and which are figurative and you have the gall to suggest that I am inconsistent.
RE: RE: "As I said, many of you errors could be avoided by taking the verses in context."
The passages chosen are consistent with choosing passages where jesus tells people how they will get into heaven.
It is hard for the rich to get into heaven. That is because rich people tend to trust in their riches. They have everything that they need, what do they need God for? The question is, are they willing to forsake the comfort and security that comes from their riches in order to follow Christ.
How do I interpret the Bible? I interpret it how it seems to want to be interpreted. If it uses a figure of speech or words such as ‘like unto,’ or words like that, I interpret it figuratively. If not, than I interpret it literally. John 6: 58-63 is the continuation of your passage so yes it is in context. Jesus said ‘The words I have spoken to are Spirit and they are life.’ So to me at least, that is pretty self explanatory.
Jesus never told his disciples not to think or reason. In fact, he was often explaining things to his disciples. And His disciples were under no compulsion to remain with Him, so it’s not like He was brainwashing them.
Jesus never said that HE didn’t know where the wind was going. His exact words were, ‘You hear its sound, but YOU cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.’
You said, ‘He was trying to corrupt the law.’ How so?
You said, ‘Obviously, he considered he was above the law, that the law did not apply to himself or to others.’ He was above the law, he WAS the law. But he did not say that the law did not apply to himself or others. Matthew 5:17 and 18 say, ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.’
The Pharisees did not stick only to the Torah. They relied heavily on additional teachings and their own traditions. If you want more information regarding the Pharisees read Matthew 23. Jesus Christ made the law and NOT ONCE did he break it.
I’m confused. Do you believe that there are absolutes, but just don’t believe that the Bible is absolutely perfect, or that there are no absolutes whatsoever? If the latter case is true, than this discussion is pointless. You can only say that you do not think that heaven exists, but you cannot say that you are 100% absolutely sure that it doesn’t exist.
Daniel
BeepX2, is there any reason you don't embed the videos on your blog? It is easy, all you need to do is copy the embed link and paste it in the body of your post. This way, people won't leave your blog, unless they choose to.
I appreciate your web log. As a disciple of Christ I disagree with some of it, however.
But, much of the focus about “religion” being evil is, actually, in harmony with Jesus’ teachings and the writings of the Old Covenant prophets.
You might try my blog.
The first link gets you to the "Rich Young Ruler" exchange and an alternate interpretation that you may not have heard. I encourage you to comment. I don't pre-moderate, so feel free.
All that I ask is to not be profane or commercial. Links to your blog are welcomed as are all informational links.
http://theologyofnuance.blogspot.com/2006/09/different-interpretation-of-rich-young.html
There is a former athesist's website at http://www.doesgodexist.org/. He claims to be able to "Prove" that God exists and that Jesus is God's Son. You may want to take him up on the challenge. I am very impressed with his stuff, but you must have a lot of time to go through it.
My next blog link addresses some of the issues that came up with the Jesus Camp movie. You may be interested in what I see as the difference between what Jesus and his apostles taught and what the “Evangelical/Fundamentalists” are doing in their religion.
http://theologyofnuance.blogspot.com/2006/09/as-young-man-i-recall-going-to-church.html
Hey, Beep, the cows are stirring and stamping their hooves. Some are mooing loudly but blowed if I can understand what they are saying. It all sounds like silly gobbledegook to me.
Other than spouting anachronistic, unintelligble verses where is their hard evidence supporting their beliefs? Good luck with them. Cheers.
RE: anonymous daniel:
RE: "It is hard for the rich to get into heaven. That is because rich people tend to trust in their riches. They have everything that they need, what do they need God for? The question is, are they willing to forsake the comfort and security that comes from their riches in order to follow Christ."
Firstly, I want to qualify my following comments in the follwing way. I do not believe that the bible is the word of god or a god, but for the sake of this discussion, I will refer to what the bible says in relation to god/jesus in order to continue the discussion.
Secondly, I agree that the bible clearly states that it is difficult for a rich man to get into heaven. Jesus also clearly states twice that in order to get into heaven you need to GIVE UP EVERYTHING. No one in the western world is prepared to do that. Certainly not any of the rich tele-evangelists.
RE: "How do I interpret the Bible? I interpret it how it seems to want to be interpreted. If it uses a figure of speech or words such as ‘like unto,’ or words like that, I interpret it figuratively. If not, than I interpret it literally. John 6: 58-63 is the continuation of your passage so yes it is in context. Jesus said ‘The words I have spoken to are Spirit and they are life.’ So to me at least, that is pretty self explanatory. Jesus never told his disciples not to think or reason. In fact, he was often explaining things to his disciples. And His disciples were under no compulsion to remain with Him, so it’s not like He was brainwashing them."
In other words, you interpret them to fit what you want to believe. So, not one passage potentially has the same meaning to each individual, or to each pastor, or to each sect of christianity.
I find this quite interesting as I have spoken to many believers, and many christians of various denominations. They will even squabble amongst themselves as to what passage means what, and what was the intent of the writer, which helps to explain why there are hundreds of different sects of christianity, each claiming to interpret the word of god in the " one, true way."
What I have noticed over this time is that people interpret scripture according to their own psychological and emotional needs. For example: A person who is pro-war is more likely to interpret this passage from Matthew 10:34 as condoning a war for "the faith" than someone who is less psychologically attuned to the concept of war. ~ "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law."
So the interpretation of scripture is subjective and leads itself to the needs, desires and political aspirations of those who read it and each person is convinved that they are following the "word of god."
RE: "Jesus never said that HE didn’t know where the wind was going. His exact words were, ‘You hear its sound, but YOU cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going."
So, your claim is that jesus knew where the wind was going and where it was coming from, he just didn't tell, Uh huh...
So why did he use this passage as an analogy to describe that people of the spirit do not know where they are going either? Because that was the purpose for saying that no one knows where the wind comes from and where it is going, he used it to be analogous to the spirit. It isn't a very good anology, if he knows where the wind is going, but he doesn't know where the spirit is going.
("The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." )
RE: "You said, ‘He was trying to corrupt the law.’ How so? You said, ‘Obviously, he considered he was above the law, that the law did not apply to himself or to others.’ He was above the law, he WAS the law. But he did not say that the law did not apply to himself or others. Matthew 5:17 and 18 say, ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.’"
Well, the jews certainly thought he was trying to corrupt the law and that he was a false prophet. Jews who practice judaism still consider jesus to be a false prophet who was trying to corrupt the laws. Jews also believe that allah is a false prophet, even though islam refers it's lineage back to the writings of the first few books of the old testament.
In Deuteronomy 13, god describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (13:2- 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. God would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from god's law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether jews were truly committed to living under the law, or whether they would be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (13: 3-6, 7-8, 11).
In this bible passage, god repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls. So, the jews certainly believe that jesus came to corrupt the law as a test from god to keep them faithful to the jewish law.
Deuteronomy 13:5 "That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you."
RE: " The Pharisees did not stick only to the Torah. They relied heavily on additional teachings and their own traditions. If you want more information regarding the Pharisees read Matthew 23. Jesus Christ made the law and NOT ONCE did he break it."
He broke the law by attempting to change the law. Christians worship jesus as a god that is in direct violation of the law.
RE: "I’m confused. Do you believe that there are absolutes, but just don’t believe that the Bible is absolutely perfect, or that there are no absolutes whatsoever? If the latter case is true, than this discussion is pointless. You can only say that you do not think that heaven exists, but you cannot say that you are 100% absolutely sure that it doesn’t exist."
I have no need to believe in absolutes. That is your need as a believer. An absolute is this - "free from imperfection; complete; perfect."
If I asked you for an example of an absolute, you would offer god or the bible. I don't believe that the bible is free from imperfection or the words from a perfect god. I don't believe that there is such a thing as either a god or a perfect god.
RE: Heaven
I don't believe that a heaven or a hell exists but I cannot KNOW this absolutely, and neither can you. You can only BELIEVE fervently and hope that there is.
RE AJ:
I dunno about the embedded thing, I am worried that my blog will take longer to load than it already does.
RE: ccwman
RE: "I appreciate your web log. As a disciple of Christ I disagree with some of it, however.
But, much of the focus about “religion” being evil is, actually, in harmony with Jesus’ teachings and the writings of the Old Covenant prophets."
RE: "There is a former athesist's website at http://www.doesgodexist.org/. He claims to be able to "Prove" that God exists and that Jesus is God's Son. You may want to take him up on the challenge. I am very impressed with his stuff, but you must have a lot of time to go through it."
Firstly, no one is able to prove the existence of any god, what they are able to do is present arguments for the existence of a god or gods.
Secondly, my major concern with religion is its interminable desire to rule government. I see this as a direct threat to the secular state. The secular state allows people to have a personal religion and to practise it.
It allows people to have a religion or to not have one. I consider this the best model for government and one which is under threat from both islamic fundamentalists and christian fundamentalists alike.
Beepbeep, try reading Mark 7:5-13. It says, ‘So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"
He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
”‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.’
The Pharisees did think that Jesus was trying to destroy the law. The problem is that the WHOLE Old Testament points to the coming of Jesus. He fulfilled EVERY prophecy about the coming Messiah.
As far as absolutes go, I would consider the law of gravity an absolute, wouldn’t you? How ‘bout the changing of the seasons? How ‘bout the orbit of the moon around the earth? I would consider these absolutes and there is nothing that you or I could do to prevent them.
On heaven, I know that there is and you are the one that has to fervently hope that there is no heaven or hell.
Daniel
P.S. Just out of curiosity, am I right that you are addressing me as ‘anonymous Daniel’ to specify between me and the other Daniel on this site?
RE anonymous daniel:
First things first, I do refer to you as anonymous daniel in order to differentiate between yourself and another reader who posts as daniel.
OK, now to the other comments.
RE: "Beepbeep, try reading Mark 7:5-13. It says, ‘So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: ”‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”
I am aware that the new testament talks about how the pharisees in the old testament were corrupt. The problem is, it is just one religion's claims against another religions claims.
Jewish law, in the old testament, which came first, said there would be a false prophet who would be given special powers from god.
But that this false prophet who could tell true prophecies and who would have the power of miracles would try to seduce the people away from god's law and towards other gods.
Now, if you are a christian, you believe that jesus came as the prophet to fulfill the law as stated in the new testament and if you are a jew, you believe that jesus came as the false prophet to test the jews AWAY from the law and towards the worship of other gods as stated in the old testament.
The jews cite the old testament as evidence of this and the christians state the new testament as evidence of their claim.
And as the claims cannot be verified outside either of the religious books, it means that each refers to its book as evidence that their claim is correct.
Which is a little bit like me writing a book about 2 headed unicorns and then claiming that they must exist because my book says they do. In other words, the claims do not exist outside their own "holy books."
So, it comes down to a matter of faith, which claim you believe. Another point which is worth noting is that jesus told his disciples that he had come for the lost children of israel.
Matthew 15:24 "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." So jesus saw himself as the messiah for the jews but for the jews ONLY.
Most jews were not interested in his message as they were well aware of the passages in their "holy book" which said to beware of a false messiah.
Paul, who had never met jesus in real life, but supposedly as a vision on a road, was the one who decided to spread what he thought was the word of jesus to the gentiles.
And it is through Paul that most gentiles became aware of christianity. Now if the jews were right, Paul spread the news of a false prophet, who did not come for gentiles in the first place, but to test jews.
If christians are right, then jesus is the messiah but a messiah which did not come for them in the first place.
It is pretty obvious where I stand on this issue. I don't believe either claim.
RE: "On heaven, I know that there is and you are the one that has to fervently hope that there is no heaven or hell."
Actually, you have to hope that you are worshipping the right god. If the jews are right and jesus is a false prophet, it is off to hell for you.
If the muslims are right, and jesus is a prophet, but not god, it is off to hell for you, for not worshipping allah.
And if the hindus are right and you should have been worshipping brahma, it is off to hell for you too.
In fact, you would need to be worshipping all the gods which have supposedly existed plus the ones which can only be imagined, in order to escape the idea of hell.
RE anonymous daniel
RE: absolutes
"As far as absolutes go, I would consider the law of gravity an absolute, wouldn’t you? How ‘bout the changing of the seasons? How ‘bout the orbit of the moon around the earth? I would consider these absolutes and there is nothing that you or I could do to prevent them."
If I was to consider the laws of gravity to be absolutes, I would need to consider them to be perfect under all circumstances.
Science provides models which explain the natural world. It is a continual process of observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.
So contigent to scientific study is the concept of falsifiabily. The concept of falsifiability is why science is self correcting, and why scientific models, such as the model which supports the laws of gravity, are not considered absolutes.
Quantum Relativity, for example, is part of the on-going story of man's attempt to understand the rules of the universe, particularly the laws of gravity.
Newton was never satisfied with his theory of gravity. One part of it which bothered him was the idea that the earth pulls on the moon with no visible or mediating agent. Newton never thought this idea was credible, but he was unable to find any alternative.
Newton's theory of gravity is quite good. NASA uses it almost exclusively for all orbital calculations, and it works just fine. However, very small numerical problems with his theory were found over the years. Which is why science is now interested in ascertaining why these small, numerical problems exist.
Gravity as we currently understand it cannot be reconciled with the laws of quantum mechanics. There is currently no theory of gravity which obeys the rules of quantum field theory.
The quantum theory of fields simply will not work for a force with the properties of gravity. Most scientists claim that we need a new theory of space and time which will be compatible with the laws of quantum mechanics as we know them, and somehow allow a theory of quantum gravity to exist.
This new theory of space and time is often called Quantum Relativity.
So, to answer your question, do I believe that the laws or theories of gravity are absolutes? No. They are models which serve many purposes. They are used successfully by NASA for the shuttle flights. But when a scientific model does not work under all circumstances, new scientific models are developed.
These models remain useful and functional for as long as they function successfully as models which can accurately predict events.
But if there are anomalies in the model, they are not considered perfect as they do not account for all circumstances. They are not perfect and hence they are not absolutes.
I could make reference to the seasons, the orbit of the earth etc, but maybe another time, as this post is long enough.
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