"Begin at the beginning,and go on till you come to the end: then stop." (Lewis Carroll, 1832-1896)
Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked."Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat."I don't know," Alice answered."Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
"So long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation. "Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
"All right," said the Cat; and this time it vanished quite slowly, beginning with the end of the tail, and ending with the grin, which remained some time after the rest of it had gone. "Well! I've often seen a cat without a grin," thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!"
I am diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Like Arthur Dent from "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy", if you do not have a Babel Fish in your ear this blog will be completely unintelligible to you and will read something like this: "boggle, google, snoggle, slurp, slurp, dingleberry to the power of 10". Fortunately, those who have had the Babel Fish inserted in their ear, will understood this blog perfectly. If you are familiar with this technology, you will know that the Babel Fish lives on brainwave radiation. It excretes energy in the form of exactly the correct brainwaves needed by its host to understand what was just said; or in this case, what was read. The Babel Fish, thanks to scientific research, reverses the problem defined by its namesake in the Tower of Babel, where a deity was supposedly inspired to confuse the human race by making them unable to understand each other.
Beepbeepitsme has been added to The Atheist Blogroll. You can see the blogroll in my sidebar. The Atheist blogroll is a community building service provided free of charge to Atheist bloggers from around the world. If you would like to join, visit Mojoey at Deep Thoughts.
"Operationally, God is beginning to resemble not a ruler but the last fading smile of a cosmic Cheshire cat." - Sir Julian Huxley
"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things: Of shoes and ships and sealing wax; Of cabbages and kings. And why the sea is boiling hot; And whether pigs have wings." - Lewis Carroll
"Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel?" Alexander Pope
"The primary function of myth is to validate an existing social order. Myth enshrines conservative social values, raising tradition on a pedestal." Ann Oakley
"Some treat their longing for God as proof of His existence." Mason Cooley
"The god of the Christians, as we have seen, is the god who makes promises only to break them; who sends them pestilence and disease in order to heal them; a god who demoralizes mankind in order to improve it. A god who created man 'after his own image', and still the origin of evil in man is not accredited to him." Johann Most
"In love, we worry more about the meaning of silences than the meaning of words." Mason Cooley
"My philosophy is such that I am not going to vote against the oppressed. I have been oppressed, and so I am always going to have a vote for the oppressed, regardless of whether that oppressed is black or white or yellow or the people of the Middle East, or what. I have that feeling." Septima Clark
"Secular humanists suspect there is something more gloriously human about resisting the religious impulse; about accepting the cold truth, even if that truth is only that the universe is as indifferent to us as we are to it." Tom Flynn
"If the question is put to me would I rather have a miserable ape for a grandfather or a man highly endowed by nature and possessed of great means of influence and yet who employs those faculties and that influence for the mere purpose of introducing ridicule into a grave scientific discussion—I unhesitatingly affirm my preference for the ape." Thomas Henry Huxley
Project Gutenberg is the oldest producer of free ebooks on the Internet. The collection was produced by hundreds of volunteers.
"Give the right man a solar myth, and he'll confute the sun therewith." James Russell Lowell
"Oh let me see your beauty when the witnesses are gone. Let me feel you moving like they do in Babylon. Show me slowly what I only know the limits of. Dance me to the end of love." Leonard Cohen
"If God is male, then male is God. The divine patriarch castrates women as long as he is allowed to live on in the human imagination." Mary Daly
"If the people were a little more ignorant, astrology would flourish - if a little more enlightened, religion would perish." Robert Green Ingersoll
"In other words (so to speak): not two and also not not two." Magellan's Log V
"History is, strictly speaking, the study of questions; the study of answers belongs to anthropology and sociology." W.H. Auden
"Archaeology is the peeping Tom of the sciences. It is the sandbox of men who care not where they are going; they merely want to know where everyone else has been." Jim Bishop
"To excavate is to open a book written in the language that the centuries have spoken into the earth." Spyridon Marinatos
"Science commits suicide when it adopts a creed." Thomas Henry Huxley
"The place has changed but little since Diana received the homage of her worshippers in the sacred grove. The temple of the sylvan goddess, indeed, has vanished and the King of the Wood no longer stands sentinel over the Golden Bough." Sir James George Frazer
"Babylonian king (1792BCE–1750BCE) who made Babylon the chief Mesopotamian kingdom and codified the laws of Mesopotamia and Sumeria." The American Heritage
"We are ourselves history and share the responsibility for world history and our position in it. But we gravely lack awareness of this responsibility." Hermann Hesse
"Astrology: do we make a hullabaloo among the stars, or do they make a hullabaloo down here?" Mason Cooley
"Readers are plentiful: thinkers are rare." Harriet Martineau
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun." Thomas Paine
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence.†- Mary Boyce
"My esoteric doctrine, is that if you entertain any doubt, it is safest to take the unpopular side in the first instance. Transit from the unpopular, is easy ... but from the popular to the unpopular is so steep and rugged that it is impossible to maintain it." William Lamb Melbourne
"With reason one can travel the world over; without it it is hard to move an inch." Chinese proverb.
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. Bribery and corruption are common. Children no longer obey their parents. . . . The end of the world is evidently approaching." Sound familiar? It is, in fact, the lament of a scribe in one of the earliest inscriptions to be unearthed in Mesopotamia, where Western civilization was born. C. John Sommerville
"The sun, the moon and the stars would have disappeared long ago ... had they happened to be within the reach of predatory human hands." Havelock Ellis
"It (myth) expresses and confirms, rather than explains or questions, the sources of cultural attitudes and values... Because myth anchors the present in the past it is a sociological charter for a future society which is an exact replica of the present one." Ann Oakley
"Starry, starry night. Flaming flowers that brightly blaze, swirling clouds in violet haze, reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue." Don McLean
"NOT from the stars do I my judgment pluck, and yet methinks I have astronomy, But not to tell of good or evil luck, Of plagues, of dearths, or seasons’ quality..." William Shakespeare
"Moreover, the universe as a whole is infinite, for whatever is limited has an outermost edge to limit it, and such an edge is defined by something beyond. Since the universe has no edge, it has no limit; and since it lacks a limit, it is infinite and unbounded. Moreover, the universe is infinite both in the number of its atoms and in the extent of its void." Epicurus
"Most people today still believe, perhaps unconsciously, in the heliocentric universe every newspaper in the land has a section on astrology, yet few have anything at all on astronomy." Hannes Alfven
And now for the Dr. Seuss Bible: One day God said, "This is what I will do: I'll send down my son. I'll send him to you To clear up this humpity bumpity hullaballoo. His name will be Christ and he'll never wear shoes. His pals will all call him 'The King of the Jews.'" He didn't come in a plane. He didn't come in a Jeep. He didn't come in a pouch Of a high jumping Voveep. He rode on the back of a black Sassatoo Which is the blackiest creature you ever could view. He rode to Jerusalem -- home of the grumpity Jews Where false prophets were worshiped -- some even in twos. There was Murray VonMyrrh and Ghengis Vovooz -- The one you could worship by taking a snooze. Christ spoke from a mound Which is a pile of ground. People gathered around Without making a sound. Thus he spake: "Sin in socks Socks full of sin. How do we quiet This Jehovaty din? Do unto others as they do unto you. That includes you, young Timothy Foo." One pharisee said to another he knew, "What shall we do with this uppity Jew?" "Let's wash him in wine and make him all clean And into Sam Zittle's crucifiction machine." Twirl the Gawhirl And release the Galeese And in go the nails As fast as you please. And it is said That he said as he bled,"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. For they walk throughout life in toe crampity shoes." Do you? Amen.
For somebody who doesn't believe in God you really talk about him a lot! It strikes me that someone who accuses “religious people” of intolerance you really seem as intolerant of them. Which almost makes your intolerance a “religion”. Like a Crusade.
MEME: n : a cultural unit (an idea or value or pattern of behavior) that is passed from one generation to another by nongenetic means (as by imitation); "memes are the cultural counterpart of genes"
The religious memes in many nations are now evolving rapidly into political memes.
As a result of this piggybacking of memes, I find it difficult to trust the political judgement of people who believe in religious invisible beings.
People who believe in invisible beings also tend to believe in invisible weapons of mass destruction.
People who believe in invisible beings also tend to believe that it is great to blow yourself up and others, in the service of an invisible being.
The judgement of believers concerning important political issues is more than dubious.
Their belief requires them to imagine the improbable and then demand that it is true.
I almost agree with you. . . . as I do with Harris & Dawkins. The problem I have fronted, is that beliefs and persons are too close one to the other that is difficult not to critic one without critic the other. And then becomes the offense. Maybe there is a -way- to expose it without falling into this trouble. Is a matter of the way of saying things. Anyway, I have founded that the blogs are those kind of media where you can talk of everything in a good way, as yours.
People who believe in invisible things are also capable of doing a lot of good. It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill."
As for myself, I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. No evidence for their existence; no reason to believe that they exist.
"People who believe in invisible things are also capable of doing a lot of good. It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill."
I wasn't trying to make a connection that people who believe in invisible beings do good or bad.
But I think because they are prepared to believe quite extraordinary things, that they are more suscpetible to persuasion to believe in other quite extraordinary and unrealistic things.
So, I do doubt their ability to understand the difference between fact and fiction.
Are they discerning examiners of information?
I think they are selective, according to that which fits their pre-existing belief systems.
So perhaps they have a pre-existing condition which allows them to believe all sorts of wank.
I agree. We should question beliefs which may be harmful.
RE:arthur It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill." That makes no sense whatsoever.
RE: beepbeepitsme "I think religions are cultural memes." Religion/s in the traditional sense of the word - yes. Religion might be the most dangerous thing that has happened to the human race. I've seen peoples lives destroyed because of it. I've seen people killed for it. I’ve seen marriages fail due to religious fanaticism. But I’ve seen and experienced the other side of the coin as well. I’ve seen someone with no religious background experience (there is a difference between invisible and experience – you have never “seen” the wind but you might have experienced the effects of the wind. You’ve never seen your brain either – but you believe in it) something mystical. An awakening that prompts them to have faith in something they’ve never seen before. Something that changes their lives and cause them to change their behaviour. It’s got nothing to do with political agendas, intolerance of others etc. (That by the way is religion).
I've read quite a bit here and have to say that I haven't really found much intolerance. I think you may be confusing intolerance with the simple idea that we should tell it as it is.
Really, it is quite simple. There is no evidence to suggest that God actually exists. Should you provide testable and incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, then I'm sure that Beepbeep (and many others) would analyse the evidence provided and come to a different conclusion. One based on the evidence, no doubt.
Oh, the other thing I've seen a lot of here is Beep being willing to discuss the opinions posted here. I don't think we can put that under "intolerant" either.
But I think because they are prepared to believe quite extraordinary things, that they are more suscpetible to persuasion to believe in other quite extraordinary and unrealistic things.
Well, there are many (I don't know about "most", but many) theists who aren't given to believing in extraordinary/unrealistic things, such as, say, Creationism or astrology--and who are quite prepared to admit that their belief in God is not a rational one (in the sense that they realise that they cannot demonstrate God's existence by way of appealing to evidence in the natural/material/observable Universe), and who are happy to accept that the natural Universe is governed by natural laws, and so on. For these people, God's existence is neither a matter of fact nor fiction, because "fact" and "fiction" are terms that apply to the physical Universe. (You do realise I'm playing devil's advocate here?)
So I think you might have things the wrong way around. It isn't that theism predisposes one to believe in ridiculous things such as Creationism or astrology. Those who simultaneously believe in invisible things and in ridiculous things might be afflicted by a cognitive failing that neither rational atheists nor rational theists possess.
This latter group of people certainly would have difficulty separating fact from fiction, insofar as they have similar difficulty separating the physical from the metaphysical and the natural from the supernatural. Does it suggest a genetic predisposition? I don't know. There was a time when almost nobody recognised the distinction between the natural and the supernatural--but that doesn't mean that the human race at that time was a pack of idiots! It just means that the "natural versus supernatural" or "science versus religion" memes either did not exist (certainly not in their current form) or were not widespread.
RE anonymous: "you have never “seen” the wind but you might have experienced the effects of the wind. You’ve never seen your brain either – but you believe in it) something mystical."
Sorry, but that is plain "woowoo language."
It is disingenous to suggest that the god meme is in any way related to the scientific evidence we have for wind and the brain.
The "invisible god meme" has no scientific evidence for it's existence.
Wind velocity and direction are demonstrable and measurable. The "invisible god" is neither demonstrable nor measurable.
I have seen pictures of my brain. I don't need to believe that brains exist. Though in the case of theists I might require evidence of said brains from now on before I allow them to post comments.
The "invisible god" is neither demonstrable nor measurable.
Indeed: by "visible" we mean "demonstrable or measurable." Our anonymous friend is taking us too literally. (But then, should that really surprise us?)
15 Comments:
For somebody who doesn't believe in God you really talk about him a lot! It strikes me that someone who accuses “religious people” of intolerance you really seem as intolerant of them. Which almost makes your intolerance a “religion”. Like a Crusade.
RE anonymous:
I think religions are cultural memes.
MEME: n : a cultural unit (an idea or value or pattern of behavior) that is passed from one generation to another by nongenetic means (as by imitation); "memes are the cultural counterpart of genes"
The religious memes in many nations are now evolving rapidly into political memes.
As a result of this piggybacking of memes, I find it difficult to trust the political judgement of people who believe in religious invisible beings.
People who believe in invisible beings also tend to believe in invisible weapons of mass destruction.
People who believe in invisible beings also tend to believe that it is great to blow yourself up and others, in the service of an invisible being.
The judgement of believers concerning important political issues is more than dubious.
Their belief requires them to imagine the improbable and then demand that it is true.
RE anonymous:
I am tolerant of everyone's right to believe whatever they want, but I do not have to tolerate the belief.
The belief they have might involve sadistic behaviour enacted upon women.
FOR EXAMPLE: If you had a belief that all women should have their clitorises removed, should I allow you to have that belief?
Or should I question that belief?
Should I allow you to have that belief, but ask for reasoned discourse concerning why everyone should have that belief?
Beliefs lead to actions.
There are many beliefs, not just religious ones, and I think it is morally responsible to question beliefs which may be harmful.
I almost agree with you. . . . as I do with Harris & Dawkins. The problem I have fronted, is that beliefs and persons are too close one to the other that is difficult not to critic one without critic the other. And then becomes the offense.
Maybe there is a -way- to expose it without falling into this trouble. Is a matter of the way of saying things.
Anyway, I have founded that the blogs are those kind of media where you can talk of everything in a good way, as yours.
Which almost makes your intolerance a “religion”.
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Like a Crusade.
That makes even less sense.
People who believe in invisible beings
People who believe in invisible things are also capable of doing a lot of good. It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill."
As for myself, I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy. No evidence for their existence; no reason to believe that they exist.
RE arthur:
"People who believe in invisible things are also capable of doing a lot of good. It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill."
I wasn't trying to make a connection that people who believe in invisible beings do good or bad.
But I think because they are prepared to believe quite extraordinary things, that they are more suscpetible to persuasion to believe in other quite extraordinary and unrealistic things.
So, I do doubt their ability to understand the difference between fact and fiction.
Are they discerning examiners of information?
I think they are selective, according to that which fits their pre-existing belief systems.
So perhaps they have a pre-existing condition which allows them to believe all sorts of wank.
RE:beepbeepitsme
I agree. We should question beliefs which may be harmful.
RE:arthur
It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill."
That makes no sense whatsoever.
RE: beepbeepitsme
"I think religions are cultural memes."
Religion/s in the traditional sense of the word - yes. Religion might be the most dangerous thing that has happened to the human race. I've seen peoples lives destroyed because of it. I've seen people killed for it. I’ve seen marriages fail due to religious fanaticism.
But I’ve seen and experienced the other side of the coin as well. I’ve seen someone with no religious background experience (there is a difference between invisible and experience – you have never “seen” the wind but you might have experienced the effects of the wind. You’ve never seen your brain either – but you believe in it) something mystical. An awakening that prompts them to have faith in something they’ve never seen before. Something that changes their lives and cause them to change their behaviour. It’s got nothing to do with political agendas, intolerance of others etc. (That by the way is religion).
Anonymous:
I've read quite a bit here and have to say that I haven't really found much intolerance. I think you may be confusing intolerance with the simple idea that we should tell it as it is.
Really, it is quite simple. There is no evidence to suggest that God actually exists. Should you provide testable and incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, then I'm sure that Beepbeep (and many others) would analyse the evidence provided and come to a different conclusion. One based on the evidence, no doubt.
Oh, the other thing I've seen a lot of here is Beep being willing to discuss the opinions posted here. I don't think we can put that under "intolerant" either.
Enjoyed you blog Beep...:)
But I think because they are prepared to believe quite extraordinary things, that they are more suscpetible to persuasion to believe in other quite extraordinary and unrealistic things.
Well, there are many (I don't know about "most", but many) theists who aren't given to believing in extraordinary/unrealistic things, such as, say, Creationism or astrology--and who are quite prepared to admit that their belief in God is not a rational one (in the sense that they realise that they cannot demonstrate God's existence by way of appealing to evidence in the natural/material/observable Universe), and who are happy to accept that the natural Universe is governed by natural laws, and so on. For these people, God's existence is neither a matter of fact nor fiction, because "fact" and "fiction" are terms that apply to the physical Universe. (You do realise I'm playing devil's advocate here?)
So I think you might have things the wrong way around. It isn't that theism predisposes one to believe in ridiculous things such as Creationism or astrology. Those who simultaneously believe in invisible things and in ridiculous things might be afflicted by a cognitive failing that neither rational atheists nor rational theists possess.
This latter group of people certainly would have difficulty separating fact from fiction, insofar as they have similar difficulty separating the physical from the metaphysical and the natural from the supernatural. Does it suggest a genetic predisposition? I don't know. There was a time when almost nobody recognised the distinction between the natural and the supernatural--but that doesn't mean that the human race at that time was a pack of idiots! It just means that the "natural versus supernatural" or "science versus religion" memes either did not exist (certainly not in their current form) or were not widespread.
It's just that there is no necessary connection betweeen "belief in invisible things" and "doing good" or "doing ill."
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Why not?
(there is a difference between invisible and experience – you have never “seen” the wind but you might have experienced the effects of the wind.
Intelligent Pushing :)
RE caribou
Thanks for the link mate.
RE anonymous:
"you have never “seen” the wind but you might have experienced the effects of the wind. You’ve never seen your brain either – but you believe in it) something mystical."
Sorry, but that is plain "woowoo language."
It is disingenous to suggest that the god meme is in any way related to the scientific evidence we have for wind and the brain.
The "invisible god meme" has no scientific evidence for it's existence.
Wind velocity and direction are demonstrable and measurable. The "invisible god" is neither demonstrable nor measurable.
I have seen pictures of my brain. I don't need to believe that brains exist. Though in the case of theists I might require evidence of said brains from now on before I allow them to post comments.
The "invisible god" is neither demonstrable nor measurable.
Indeed: by "visible" we mean "demonstrable or measurable." Our anonymous friend is taking us too literally. (But then, should that really surprise us?)
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